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Richard Donnelly's avatar

Thanks Renee. I see the same with short stories. No structure. And the ending? It's like the author just stopped writing : )

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Renee Fountain's avatar

Luckily it was short 😉

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Devayani's avatar

👌🫶🙏🙏🙏for your time writing and sharing such vital tips.. on writing compelling 📕

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The Eccentric Raven's avatar

I appreciate this. As a planster, there’s no way I can go without any planning or structure. It actually helps creativity, not hinge it. I learned that when I don’t plan, I suffer writer's block and make up crap to keep the story going, writing trash that harms my confidence. Planning doesn't restrict me as I still discovery writer as I go which comes naturally.

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Renee Fountain's avatar

Glad to hear it. Having a plan or at least a guide does wonders for keeping you on the right path.

However, just sort of "blindly" writing is also a way to get out of a writers block. Writing what you want to happen in a particular scene or just writing stream of cosciousness, random thoughts on a character can often lead to ideas or at least getting the writing brain warmed up.

It's basically "morning pages" but more task focused.

So when you feel those moments where you're going to "trash write" just open a new document and get it all out there. No confidence needs to be harmed in the commission of creative endeavor ;)

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The Eccentric Raven's avatar

Agreed. I often get myself out of blocks by making myself write. I can come up with a genius moment while writing as I go, get those sparks of inspiration. I can’t always rely on pansting, in fact I almost gave up writing completely because of it. When I wrote a novel with little planning, the bad stuff I wrote as I went was so embarrassing, and worse I didn't know how to fix it. After I studied the craft and wrote an extensive outline for my next novel, I was happier to have a first draft that was fairly decent and easier to fix in the next draft. That's how I've found I'm a planster. Happily working on draft 3 now.

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Renee Fountain's avatar

So glad you found something that worked for you.

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Tracy Mazuer's avatar

Thank you!

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Renee Fountain's avatar

You’re welcome, Tracy. Thank you for enjoying it.

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Good Humor by CK Steefel's avatar

Great advice. I always had the first problem— a passive main character.

As a reader I notice right away when the structure is weak.

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Renee Fountain's avatar

I love that. You know it when you see it. 😉 What do you mean by passive? They’re just hanging out?

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Renee Fountain's avatar

I’m asking. What makes them passive?

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Good Humor by CK Steefel's avatar

Oh. I thought you were joking. I had a main character who I sort of victimized. Things kept happening to her. She wasn’t in control. She needed to be the one who made mistakes, causing other problems and learning as part of her arc.

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Kendall Lamb's avatar

This is really helpful, Renee, thank you! Momentum and purpose are so important, and it's so easy to get lost in the lyrics. Loved this.

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Renee Fountain's avatar

Thanks, Kendall. Glad it resonated with you.

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The Menopausal Mermaid's avatar

Thanks Renee. These are really helpful questions for this menopausal mermaid to ask herself as she is in the midst of crafting her 10 page sample of narrative nonfiction! Gotta weed the word garden . . .

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Renee Fountain's avatar

Sounds good :) Glad it gave you something to consider.

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Charles Botsford's avatar

Thanks Renee. I'm a pantser. I have to keep the end in mind at every step of the way or I get lost. It helps if you have a logline for that very purpose. It makes me focus on the characters, what they want, and how much trouble I can put them in, all while I stay laser focused on where the story needs to wrap.

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Renee Fountain's avatar

Charles, that’s a good approach. I’ve heard from first time authors who pantsed it and said the story got away from them too often, and they’ll try a writing method on the next one.

I think you just have to try a few things to see what works for you. Seems you found something that does. Good luck 🙂

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Charles Botsford's avatar

Hi Renee, I've pantsed my way through 13 novels and I'm now 45K words into #14, when I got . . . stuck. It wasn't a structural problem per se (I'm thinking). It's a character problem--a minor character was too cardboardy. After many side diversions (weeding, sudoku, real work), I figured out the character needed to be much more complex, which in turn, made it a structural fix. That'll teach me to not pay attention to minor characters . . . and structure.

Best Regards,

Charlie

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Renee Fountain's avatar

Awesome, Charles. That’s a lot of books. Also, more proof that stepping away can often bring answers. Keep it up!

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Norman T. Leonard's avatar

Renee, have you been watching The Studio? The second episode—The Oner—is a master class in a lot of the stuff you’re discussing here. A TV show, I know, but the structure is indistinguishable from the character, it works as a stand-alone story, and the stakes ratchet up throughout the episode.

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Steph Rae Moran's avatar

Great tips to apply to a novel or short story! Thanks so much for the webinar this morning--it reassured me that I'm tackling the revision of my novel in a productive way. I appreciate all of your writing advice. I signed up for your Launch Kit, but for some reason it hasn't sent me the download link. Is there something I should do to retrieve it? Thanks again!

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Renee Fountain's avatar

Hi Steph, you're very welcome. I checked and it looks like it asked you to confirm -- so you need to see if there's an email in your junk box or that you may have missed. You should already be confirmed, but it does what it does. Once you confirm, it will send. If not, let me know.

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Steph Rae Moran's avatar

Thanks for looking into it. Yes, I received the confirmation email and pushed the button. I received a success screen, but nothing more. I checked my spam/junk folders, but nothing was there. Maybe I've signed up for too many webinars, and it doesn't know what to do with my email. 😉

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Renee Fountain's avatar

No limit. All good. 😊 I’ll get it to you.

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Steph Rae Moran's avatar

Thank you!😊

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Catharina Steel's avatar

Well explained. I often say I’m a planster  . . . I like to do what I’ve been calling my discovery writing. I haven’t heard/read someone else call it that before, and I’m still grinning because I think it’s such a great way to describe this part of the writing process.

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Renee Fountain's avatar

🙂 That is funny, Catharina. I couldn’t think of how else to say it. “Winging it” didn’t seem right.

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Catharina Steel's avatar

I also often refer to this part of the process exploratory writing. I liken it to going on an adventure in a place you have never been before. You explore this new world. Meet people and listen to their stories. You spend time with these people, getting to know them better, learning their quirks, passions, fears, etc. It’s a fun part of the writing process, although I’m one of those writers who loves editing. I think I do a lot of my writing while editing.

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Renee Fountain's avatar

Thank you for sharing. It might also help someone else who is struggling to find what works for them, so thank you for your thoughtful input. 😊

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Renee Fountain's avatar

I would think that approach would lead to a good amount of editing. Free writing like that is helpful in getting your ideas down and seeing where they go. Then honing them.

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Catharina Steel's avatar

If I wrote the whole story this way, it certainly would (I think pantsers will need to do a lot of editing). But, I’m a plantser, so I only do exploratory writing to get a feel for the characters, world, plot, and the number of books the idea supports. After that, I start outlining, creating character profiles, magic rules (I write fantasy), and build a map and write a world profile (I can’t think how to explain this better . . . Busy head 🫣). And then I start drafting the scenes according to my outline (building the outline further as I go—the outline is also handy to draft the synopsis from). This process works for me. 😃

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Jessica's avatar

As always, amazing advice! And since receiving your feedback on my first ten pages, I’ve been able to cut those pages down to five. I can see how much better the pacing is without all the extra information! Sometimes it’s hard to let go, but like you said, the extra information didn’t add anything valuable to that scene.

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Renee Fountain's avatar

That's awesome, Jessica! I especially love that you can see the difference and now know how to better the avoid the issue in the future. Knowing the "why" is so much more valuable than just following someone's advice.

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Maryann Lawrence's avatar

Are you an editor, Renee?

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Renee Fountain's avatar

I do edit manuscripts, yes.

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Sarah Crowne's avatar

Fantastic post! Love this. "It’s the invisible spine that supports your story; and without it, even beautiful writing collapses under its own weight." so very true.

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Renee Fountain's avatar

Thank you Sarah :)

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Karin Gillespie's avatar

Perfection! You've articulated so well what I want to say when confronted with an episodic novel.

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Renee Fountain's avatar

Thanks, Karin. 🙂

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Renee Fountain's avatar

I haven't yet - that's the one with Seth Rogan? I'll have to check it out.

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